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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Why do we include job titles, military ranks in actors name fields? |
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| Author |
Message |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting HilbertHimmelwaerts: Quote:
But why we have a special rule how to enter nicknames (niddle name, not part of the first and the last name) and now try to fit ranks in the regular rules? In my opinion they just don't fit...
I enter military ranks just as they appear in the credits - credited as is a great feature, but i just don't think this should be included in the common name. I don't say to ignore this data... We have a special rule for nicknames because they are not consistent across all credits. Titles and ranks always come before the first name, so no special rule was needed. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting DaMikstar: Quote:
Who is whining and crying? I'm sorry if I flipped your world upside down, but here the Military doesn't mean that much, that we would use ranks off duty. Even not if it's a family with a military history.
And if the boss give his opinion for discussion we are allowed to give our own opinions and to act upon them until the boss makes a clear decision (which is not an opinion). The boss' opinion is only to be followed if there are no other opinions. Is your boss aware that his opinion is meaningless? I have a hard time believing that he does. In addition, Gerri did not give an opinion concerning the inclusion of rank. Her opinion involved the inclusion of the military branch designation. But don't let the facts get in the way here. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting HilbertHimmelwaerts: Quote:
Quoting Unicus69:
Quote:
What could be simpler than copying exactly what you see? 
If i want to crosslink the different name versions of some actors simply copying the screen is just useless...
Quote:
And we wonder why the CLT is so useless when it comes to determining common name.
Please don't blame me. Its just the useless CLT in this cases. Please try to confirm the correct common name via CLT in this case. I just quote imdb:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0245653/Quote:
Capt. Dale A. Dye | Capt. Dale Dye | Captain Dale A. Dye | Captain Dale Dye | Dale A. Dye | USMC Ret. Capt. Dale Dye | USMC [Ret.] Capt. Dale Dye | USMC [ret.] Capt. Dale Dye | USMC [ret] Capt. Dale Dye | Capt. Dale Dye USMC Ret. | Capt. Dale Dye U.S.M.C. [Ret.] | Capt. Dale Dye USMC [Ret.] | Capt. Dale Dye USMC [Ret] | Capt. Dale Dye USMC [ret.] | Capt. Dale Dye USMC [ret]
If this actor really is credited with all this variants using the credit lookup tool would be great fun...
I would use CLT only to confirm either "Dale Dye" or "Dale A. Dye" is more common... I spent my leisure time with contributing and updating profiles, too. But i just want to spent my time reasonable... Like Unicus said, what could be easier than simply copying what is On Screen, that is whjat you are supposed to do. . The table for Common names is SUPPOSED to be constructed of data from film credits, NOT IUMDb or data which is otherwise invented, imagined, hallucinated or made up. IF that were accurately done by ALL users then we could get accurate results to determone the most COMMONLY Credited name for any individual. NOTE: I said most Commonly Credited name, I did not say "correct"/legal name...that is completely irrelevant. The bottom line as always is that in your local environment you can do ANYTHING which you wish, YOU make the Rules, the purpose of the On;line is top create a consistent dataset from which ALL users can then create their own database, it is impossible for the Online to serve the precise need, preferences and biases of each and every user. Every user that tries to impose his own particular will onn thge Online only creates that much more havoc for the user community as a WHOLE. We used to have guidelines, which only resulted in utter chaos, for those who have been around long enough. We used to have titles which would ping-pong back and forth weekly as users fought to impose their will on the Online, one title was edited in excess of 900 times. If anybody tried to put a stop to it, they would be told "They are Guidelines, not Rules sand Guidelines don't HAVE to be followed". So now we have Rules and we still have users who are desperately trying to impose their will regardless of what the rules say, be it Step Up 2: or Admiral Somebody Someone. Let me try and paint you a picture of the kind of nightmare it used to be. We used to be able to even set the sort for the online. SOME users wanted to and would periodically impose their wishes of how they wanted to sort titles with absolutely NO concern for anyone. For example, they wanted to sort all their James Bonds together so they would set the sort as James Bond 3 (03,003, whatever). After that has been done if you look for Goldfinger...you won't find it. So Ken finally said vert publicly that sort=title PERIOD, sadly there were users who were insistent on having things their way and even a comment from Ken did not stop them, kind of like we have right NOW. Finally Ken had enough of the nonsense and said that sort was now a local issue ONLY, sort relative to the Online would be determined by whatever parameters are applied by Intervocative(Invelos)...end of discussion, thankfully. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 |  Posts: 2,366 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting HilbertHimmelwaerts: Quote:
PS: Maggie Smith is credited as Dame Maggie Smith in Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets. Thanks!  I had her twice in my local database. | | | Martin Zuidervliet
DVD Profiler Nederlands |
| | Registered: March 19, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,018 |
| | Posted: | | | | You've got to realize that the vast majority of users do not visit these forums (perhaps unless they encounter technical problems), so any statement by Ken or Gerri will not reach all users unless it is subsequently incorporated into the contribution rules (and even then... but let's not go there).
I agree with north that in this case the problem is in the word "name", not in the words "exactly as credited". Perhaps it's obvious to US users that military ranks are part of names, but to many non-US users it's not. A small addition to the rules along the lines he suggested would do the trick. |
| | Registered: May 9, 2007 | | Posts: 1,536 |
| | Posted: | | | | It doesn't matter whether a rank is part of a name or not, what matters is if it is part of a credit. | | | | Hans |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 4,678 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Staid S Barr: Quote:
It doesn't matter whether a rank is part of a name or not, what matters is if it is part of a credit. Well, it does if you take the rule literally and you haven't read Gerri's comment in the forum. The rule says to enter the name exactly as credited. It doesn't say to enter the entire credit. That said, I agree with most of you that Gerri's comment makes it clear what is intended. But since reading the forum is not mandatory, it ought to be clarified in the rules. IMHO. | | | My freeware tools for DVD Profiler users.
Gunnar |
| | Registered: March 19, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,018 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Staid S Barr: Quote:
It doesn't matter whether a rank is part of a name or not, what matters is if it is part of a credit. I beg to differ. Quoting the rules: "take the actor information from the end credits only, with names and roles listed exactly as they are in the credits and in exactly the same order credited". And also: "The section details both the actor’s Name and the Role that they played in the film." I'm perfectly happy to honour Gerri's instructions. Do not take my post as a statement of unwillingness to contribute according to Ken's and/or Gerri's wishes. My point is: because most users don't read these forums, Gerri's clarification will not reach each and every contributor, and since the rule as it is currently stated lends itself for various interpretations regarding pre- and suffixes (as demonstrated by the need for Gerri to step in), a tiny clarification in the rules themselves would help. That's all. | | | | Last edited: by dee1959jay |
| | Registered: May 9, 2007 |  Posts: 72 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
We have a special rule for nicknames because they are not consistent across all credits. Titles and ranks always come before the first name, so no special rule was needed. Quote:
Capt. Dale A. Dye | Capt. Dale Dye | Captain Dale A. Dye | Captain Dale Dye | Dale A. Dye | USMC Ret. Capt. Dale Dye | USMC [Ret.] Capt. Dale Dye | USMC [ret.] Capt. Dale Dye | USMC [ret] Capt. Dale Dye | Capt. Dale Dye USMC Ret. | Capt. Dale Dye U.S.M.C. [Ret.] | Capt. Dale Dye USMC [Ret.] | Capt. Dale Dye USMC [Ret] | Capt. Dale Dye USMC [ret.] | Capt. Dale Dye USMC [ret]
And confirming the common name via credited lookup means that we must not only deal with his military rank, we also must deal with different writings, with () oder[] or even with "ret." or "ret". I'm really glad that the CLT ignores capitalization... Dye USMC [Ret] - Funny "Last Name"... Quote:
Let me try and paint you a picture of the kind of nightmare it used to be. We used to be able to even set the sort for the online. SOME users wanted to and would periodically impose their wishes of how they wanted to sort titles with absolutely NO concern for anyone. For example, they wanted to sort all their James Bonds together so they would set the sort as James Bond 3 (03,003, whatever). This is something complete different. After all this is exact the same discussion than before. I think it is unhandy only use the CLT to constitute the common name. I am just for some handy general rules for some standard cases before asking the CLT... Example 1. Junior/Senior If an actor is a junior or senior always use ,jr. - if the actor is credited junior, jr or jr. use credited as. 2. Asian Names Always use the western style as common name, if the actors is credited in the asian style use credited as. Ziyi Zhang or Masamune Shirow would be the correct comon name. And for example in "Crouching Tiger" the correct entry would be: Ziyi Zhang [Zhang Ziyi] and for "The Geisha" just Ziyi Zhang. Zhang is the last name and with the CLT Ziyi Zhang is more common. But the common name for the Chinese director is Zhang Yimou...  Besides that neither Zhang Ziyi nor Ziyi Zhang has a clear advantage in the CLT and the most movies can be found with both variants... 3. Titles and ranks Alway use the natural name without titles and military ranks - use credited as for them. Really always the same discussion... With my suggestion we get accurate data, working crosslinks and save much time. This won't be a mess, chaos or ping-pong. I relly can't see any disadvantages with some handy general rules... | | | | Last edited: by Rince81 |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting dee1959jay: Quote:
I beg to differ. Quoting the rules: "take the actor information from the end credits only, with names and roles listed exactly as they are in the credits and in exactly the same order credited". And also: "The section details both the actor’s Name and the Role that they played in the film." I beg to differ. For that to make sense, to me at least, you have to ignore the rest of the rule. To be precise, you have to ignore the part of the rule that says, "Use the "Credited As" field where the actor's name differs from the credited name." It is clear, at least to me, that we are after the 'credited name'. If that credited name includes a title, then we enter it. If it doesn't, then we don't. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 19, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,018 |
| | Posted: | | | | Of course we're after the credited name - the quote I gave says "exactly as they are in the credits". And since Gerri's clarification it's also clear to me that if the credited name includes a title, then we enter it - no problem there.
My point is: without Gerri's clarification the bit about titles will not be obvious to every single contributor, so why not include it in the rules themselves? |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 17,334 |
| | Posted: | | | | The same thing can be said about pretty much all the clarifications they have made... just of the top of my head...
- titles/ranks
- Looking for Most Commonly Credited
- Himself As situation
none of the above clarifications has made it into the rules as of yet. Should they be... I am sure everyone agrees it would be a good thing. But lets face it... there is just no way every situation can be addressed in the rules. I am sure if/when they feel it has gotten to the point that they have to add any of these (or any other clarification) to the rules they will. Until then I believe they look to us to point their clarifications out when needed. | | | | Pete |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | deejay:
There is only one reason why the Rule is not clear without Gerri's clarification and that is because the user wants to do it HIS wy and is trying to come up with a way around the Rule. There is one crucial word that everybody ignores or missed...EXACTLY. That word has a meaning. I am of the opinion that we have users who simply want to skirt the Rules and will create whatever spin and definitions that suit them and help them to achieve their own selfish motives and that is to bend the Online to THEIR wishes and to hell with anyone and anything. It is possible to make ANY rule unclear by muddying the waters, some excel at it.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 19, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,018 |
| | Posted: | | | | Hey guys, I'm not opposing anything you've said. I just think the rules should be as clear as possible to everyone, even if English is not their mother's tongue. No need to resort to evil intent - it can be just a language and/or cultural issue.
To be honest, before Gerri's clarification came along, I would have been inclined to use "Credited As" to deal with military ranks and titles - I may even have actually done so in the past (which reminds me to check up on a few profiles...). Is that because I wanted to skirt the rules? Certainly not! Would it have been entirely unreasonable to take that approach? I like to think not, because "Credited As" would preserve the entire credit, but perhaps you see it differently. In my case, it would have happened because over here we don't tend to regard ranks and titles to be part of names - a cultural issue therefore. (North was the first one to point out that the problem is not in the meaning of the word "exactly", but the word "name").
What I'm after is simply to phrase the rules in such a way that they become as language- and culture resistent (if you like) as possible, so that that very large group of users who DON'T spend half their lives on these forums are assisted in doing correct contributions. Skip, I know there are users out there that will twist the rules to their liking - all we can do is vote down their contributions. But personally I'm convinced there are also plenty of users out there that would be perfectly willing to follow the rules the way Ken and Gerri intended them, if only they were aware of how certain phrases should be interpreted.
Of course I agree with Pete there's no way every situation can be addressed in the rules. What can be done however is to clarify them - whenever Ken and Gerri see fit. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
Quoting Unicus69:
Quote:
When someone is in the service, their rank is part of their name.
Sorry, I was in the military and my rank was never part of my name. Never, ever did I sign any legal document, even military documents, with my rank included.
Deed for my house, voter registration, car title, etc, etc all signed with my name only.
I can only assume that you sign your legal name on all legal documents. I can only assume you used your 'legal' name for all those other documents. But I never said anything about a legal name, now, did I?  You said that the rank becomes part of the persons name. Now you want to play semantics that you did not say it was part of their legal name. Nice try, but rank is not part of anyone's name. | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting HilbertHimmelwaerts: Quote:
Quoting Unicus69:
Quote:
We have a special rule for nicknames because they are not consistent across all credits. Titles and ranks always come before the first name, so no special rule was needed.
Quote:
Capt. Dale A. Dye | Capt. Dale Dye | Captain Dale A. Dye | Captain Dale Dye | Dale A. Dye | USMC Ret. Capt. Dale Dye | USMC [Ret.] Capt. Dale Dye | USMC [ret.] Capt. Dale Dye | USMC [ret] Capt. Dale Dye | Capt. Dale Dye USMC Ret. | Capt. Dale Dye U.S.M.C. [Ret.] | Capt. Dale Dye USMC [Ret.] | Capt. Dale Dye USMC [Ret] | Capt. Dale Dye USMC [ret.] | Capt. Dale Dye USMC [ret]
And confirming the common name via credited lookup means that we must not only deal with his military rank, we also must deal with different writings, with () oder[] or even with "ret." or "ret". I'm really glad that the CLT ignores capitalization...
Dye USMC [Ret] - Funny "Last Name"...
Quote:
Let me try and paint you a picture of the kind of nightmare it used to be. We used to be able to even set the sort for the online. SOME users wanted to and would periodically impose their wishes of how they wanted to sort titles with absolutely NO concern for anyone. For example, they wanted to sort all their James Bonds together so they would set the sort as James Bond 3 (03,003, whatever).
This is something complete different. After all this is exact the same discussion than before. I think it is unhandy only use the CLT to constitute the common name. I am just for some handy general rules for some standard cases before asking the CLT...
Example
1. Junior/Senior
If an actor is a junior or senior always use ,jr. - if the actor is credited junior, jr or jr. use credited as.
2. Asian Names
Always use the western style as common name, if the actors is credited in the asian style use credited as. Ziyi Zhang or Masamune Shirow would be the correct comon name. And for example in "Crouching Tiger" the correct entry would be: Ziyi Zhang [Zhang Ziyi] and for "The Geisha" just Ziyi Zhang.
Zhang is the last name and with the CLT Ziyi Zhang is more common. But the common name for the Chinese director is Zhang Yimou...
Besides that neither Zhang Ziyi nor Ziyi Zhang has a clear advantage in the CLT and the most movies can be found with both variants...
3. Titles and ranks
Alway use the natural name without titles and military ranks - use credited as for them.
Really always the same discussion...
With my suggestion we get accurate data, working crosslinks and save much time. This won't be a mess, chaos or ping-pong. I relly can't see any disadvantages with some handy general rules... I have an easier answer for you, Hilbert. Follow the Rules. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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