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Invelos Forums->General: General Home Theater Discussion |
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Is Blu Ray the Laserdisc of the 21st Century? |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 4,596 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Mark Harrison: Quote: Quoting 8ballMax:
Quote: Right...so, Regular Joe has to fork over $2,139 for a 46" Sony and gets a free game console. I can see the masses now...Such a deal ![](/images/emoticons/thumbdown.gif)
The gaming system won't sell a TV. But if you're in the market anyway, it is an enticing offer. That's not the point I was trying to make Mark. The point I was making is that "the masses", or Regular Joe isn't prepared to make such a large financial investment on a format that, to be honest, just isn't that big a leap from DVD. Sure, it looks nice and may sound better, but in order to experience the full impact of HD Blu Ray, one will have to invest a large portion of their budget in order to do so. And, as I said earlier, with today's economic forecast looking as grim as it does, Regular Joe just won't see the justification in the added expense. | | | My WebGenDVD online Collection |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 1,127 |
| Posted: | | | | "Regular Joe" almost always coming in on the tail end of things. "Regular Joe" just picked up a DVD player around 4 years ago or less. Anyway, here is the EMA 2008 report and highlights. Quote: Hardware
HDTV sales rose to 20.7 million units in 2007, bringing the total installed base to 46.4 million in the U.S. (34% of households). The EMA noted that only 44% of those who own a HDTV actually watch HD programming and 22% believe to watch HD programming, while they in fact do not. The HDTV installed base is still well behind the total installed base of TVs, which was 112.4 million at the end of 2007.
Over the course of the year, 33 million DVD players were sold, bringing the total to 87.3 million console DVD players in the U.S. in 2007. There were also 48.5 million PC DVD players, 29.5 million DVD players in video game systems, 27.2 million portable DVD players and 25.2 million DVRs. 60% of DVD owners are estimated to have more than one DVD player. Almost 4.5 million HD players were sold in 2006 and 2007 in the U.S.
Microsoft sold 316,000 HD DVD add-ons for the Xbox 360.
U.S. PS3 sales were close to 3 million by the end at 2007, and 87% of PS3 owners said they watch Blu-ray movies on their console. The EMA believes that the PS3 will remain the main force behind Blu-ray disc sales until 2009, when standalone Blu-ray players are expected to outpace the sales volume of the PS3. Market research indicates that 100 – 130 million homes worldwide will own at least one Blu-ray player by 2012.
Annual sales of all Blu-ray devices are expected to reach 57.4 million units by that time. The largest market will be Europe with 26.4 million, followed by the U.S. with 22.6 million and Japan with 8.4 million, according to the EMA... | | | To err is human... ----------- 473 Blu-ray Titles |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 1,127 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote: Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
Quote:
The jump is higher.
VHS...330 lines DVD...480 lines Blu-ray...1080 lines
DVD is 576 = 330x1,75 1080 = 576x1,87
The jump is quite the same.
In visual impression, the jump between VHS and DVD was far more impressive than between DVD and HD. DVD is 480 lines in the U.S. That is a fact. Even using your numbers, you contradict yourself. The equation shows a higher percentage jump in information over VHS to DVD. Whether you claim to see that difference or not is the subjective part. That fact (even with your higher number of lines for DVD in Europe) is DVD to Blu-ray is a bigger jump in visuals than VHS to DVD. If you were talking about the audio, that would be a different story. VHS had 2 channels and DVD has up to 7 channels (plus a boost in the bitrates). Here is exact information and pictures. The math is below. VHS (4:3 ratio) is 300x360 (non broadcast image) = 108,000 pixels Recorded VHS (broadcast image) is 460x360 = 165,600 pixels DVD (4:3 ratio) is 720x360 = 259,200 pixels DVD (16:9 ratio) is 720x480 = 345,600 pixels Blu-ray (16:9 ratio) is 1920x1080 = 2,073,600 pixels Best case VHS to DVD pixel increase = 237,600 pixels DVD to Blu-ray pixel increase = 1,728,000 pixels Even increasing DVD's vertical resolution (horizontal lines) to 576, it doesn't come close to the increase from DVD to Blu-ray. | | | To err is human... ----------- 473 Blu-ray Titles |
| Registered: June 27, 2007 | Posts: 2,049 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Skywatcher: Quote: Blu-Ray can "forcibly win" at any moment. It's merely a matter of the biggest studios to start releasing less and less DVD editions to force the transition to blu-ray, but that would be a last resort measure.
If, however, you look to the numbers of blu-ray adoption, you'll see they're growing a lot more than DVD did upon its inception, so yeah, I predict a safe, staedy increase of blu-ray. Mainly when the el cheapo player brands from China arrive to the market, that's when the boom will be, and I know a lot of people waiting for that (either because they want an el cheapo, or because they're waiting for the effect it will have in the major manufacturers' prices). Yeah the keep growing faster than DVD did. But look where DVD is now. It has total domination. Still, at my company we sell a lot of blu rays now. If you check the amazon bestsellers there are a couple of blu rays in the top 100.. Let's see where it leads | | | Check out my Youtube channel under https://www.youtube.com/user/alittleolder |
| Registered: June 27, 2007 | Posts: 2,049 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting 8ballMax: Quote: Quoting Mark Harrison:Quote: Quoting 8ballMax:
Quote: Right...so, Regular Joe has to fork over $2,139 for a 46" Sony and gets a free game console. I can see the masses now...Such a deal ![](/images/emoticons/thumbdown.gif)
The gaming system won't sell a TV. But if you're in the market anyway, it is an enticing offer.
That's not the point I was trying to make Mark. The point I was making is that "the masses", or Regular Joe isn't prepared to make such a large financial investment on a format that, to be honest, just isn't that big a leap from DVD. Sure, it looks nice and may sound better, but in order to experience the full impact of HD Blu Ray, one will have to invest a large portion of their budget in order to do so. And, as I said earlier, with today's economic forecast looking as grim as it does, Regular Joe just won't see the justification in the added expense. My point exactly. People are just not willing to spend that kind of money. Just like they didn't with Laserdisc. | | | Check out my Youtube channel under https://www.youtube.com/user/alittleolder |
| Registered: June 27, 2007 | Posts: 2,049 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Ascended_Saiyan: Quote: Quoting surfeur51:
Quote: Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
Quote:
The jump is higher.
VHS...330 lines DVD...480 lines Blu-ray...1080 lines
DVD is 576 = 330x1,75 1080 = 576x1,87
The jump is quite the same.
In visual impression, the jump between VHS and DVD was far more impressive than between DVD and HD.
DVD is 480 lines in the U.S. That is a fact.
Even using your numbers, you contradict yourself. The equation shows a higher percentage jump in information over VHS to DVD. Whether you claim to see that difference or not is the subjective part. That fact (even with your higher number of lines for DVD in Europe) is DVD to Blu-ray is a bigger jump in visuals than VHS to DVD.
If you were talking about the audio, that would be a different story. VHS had 2 channels and DVD has up to 7 channels (plus a boost in the bitrates).
Here is exact information and pictures. The math is below.
VHS (4:3 ratio) is 300x360 (non broadcast image) = 108,000 pixels Recorded VHS (broadcast image) is 460x360 = 165,600 pixels DVD (4:3 ratio) is 720x360 = 259,200 pixels DVD (16:9 ratio) is 720x480 = 345,600 pixels Blu-ray (16:9 ratio) is 1920x1080 = 2,073,600 pixels
Best case VHS to DVD pixel increase = 237,600 pixels
DVD to Blu-ray pixel increase = 1,728,000 pixels
Even increasing DVD's vertical resolution (horizontal lines) to 576, it doesn't come close to the increase from DVD to Blu-ray. That's what I was talking about. The difference from DVD to Blu Ray is greater, than it was from VHS to DVD. Still, Blu Ray will stay an enthusiasts format for some time. When there are players below $150 then it will probably be more accepted. Question is, can the make players that cheap. I'd say no, because there really is a lot of expensive stuff in there. | | | Check out my Youtube channel under https://www.youtube.com/user/alittleolder |
| Registered: June 27, 2007 | Posts: 2,049 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Ascended_Saiyan: Quote: "Regular Joe" almost always coming in on the tail end of things. "Regular Joe" just picked up a DVD player around 4 years ago or less.
Anyway, here is the EMA 2008 report and highlights.
Quote: Hardware
HDTV sales rose to 20.7 million units in 2007, bringing the total installed base to 46.4 million in the U.S. (34% of households). The EMA noted that only 44% of those who own a HDTV actually watch HD programming and 22% believe to watch HD programming, while they in fact do not. The HDTV installed base is still well behind the total installed base of TVs, which was 112.4 million at the end of 2007.
Over the course of the year, 33 million DVD players were sold, bringing the total to 87.3 million console DVD players in the U.S. in 2007. There were also 48.5 million PC DVD players, 29.5 million DVD players in video game systems, 27.2 million portable DVD players and 25.2 million DVRs. 60% of DVD owners are estimated to have more than one DVD player. Almost 4.5 million HD players were sold in 2006 and 2007 in the U.S.
Microsoft sold 316,000 HD DVD add-ons for the Xbox 360.
U.S. PS3 sales were close to 3 million by the end at 2007, and 87% of PS3 owners said they watch Blu-ray movies on their console. The EMA believes that the PS3 will remain the main force behind Blu-ray disc sales until 2009, when standalone Blu-ray players are expected to outpace the sales volume of the PS3. Market research indicates that 100 – 130 million homes worldwide will own at least one Blu-ray player by 2012.
Annual sales of all Blu-ray devices are expected to reach 57.4 million units by that time. The largest market will be Europe with 26.4 million, followed by the U.S. with 22.6 million and Japan with 8.4 million, according to the EMA... Sure europe is the biggest market. Most units sold. Also they cost twice as much as they do in the US. We are really a cashcow to be milked | | | Check out my Youtube channel under https://www.youtube.com/user/alittleolder |
| Registered: June 27, 2007 | Posts: 2,049 |
| Posted: | | | | I just watched a DVD upscaled to 1080i. I really have to admit that it's pretty good.. | | | Check out my Youtube channel under https://www.youtube.com/user/alittleolder |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: ![High Rating](/images/Ratings/Small/1.png) | Posts: 6,635 |
| Posted: | | | | If you took up-converting out of the picture, Blu ray would be the rage.
With analog TV falling by the wayside next year here in the U.S., many people are about to buy their first HiDef TV.
This is important because if they buy 1080p, they will find that SD DVDs do not look that great on a 1080p TV without up-converting.
However, if they also buy (or have) an up-converting DVD play, then they may very well pass on Blu ray as just an extravagance.
Joe-six-pack is a pretty cheap breed...odds are not good for mass acceptance of Blu ray...unfortunately.
(BTW-this all goes for HD DVD if it had stayed in the game as well) | | | Hal |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: ![Highest Rating](/images/Ratings/Small/4.png) | Posts: 13,201 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote: This is important because if they buy 1080p, they will find that SD DVDs do not look that great on a 1080p TV without up-converting. I have to disagree on this point. My SD DVDs looked pretty darned good on my HD TV. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand. The Centauri learned this lesson once. We will teach it to them again. Though it take a thousand years, we will be free. - Citizen G'Kar |
| Registered: June 27, 2007 | Posts: 2,049 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting 8ballMax: Quote: Quoting Mark Harrison:Quote: Quoting 8ballMax:
Quote: Right...so, Regular Joe has to fork over $2,139 for a 46" Sony and gets a free game console. I can see the masses now...Such a deal ![](/images/emoticons/thumbdown.gif)
The gaming system won't sell a TV. But if you're in the market anyway, it is an enticing offer.
That's not the point I was trying to make Mark. The point I was making is that "the masses", or Regular Joe isn't prepared to make such a large financial investment on a format that, to be honest, just isn't that big a leap from DVD. Sure, it looks nice and may sound better, but in order to experience the full impact of HD Blu Ray, one will have to invest a large portion of their budget in order to do so. And, as I said earlier, with today's economic forecast looking as grim as it does, Regular Joe just won't see the justification in the added expense. Still, if we are talking just about TV's, a hell of a lot of people currently buy big screen LCD TV's. Just that Full HD TV's make of just about 10% of the sales | | | Check out my Youtube channel under https://www.youtube.com/user/alittleolder |
| Registered: June 27, 2007 | Posts: 2,049 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote: If you took up-converting out of the picture, Blu ray would be the rage.
With analog TV falling by the wayside next year here in the U.S., many people are about to buy their first HiDef TV.
This is important because if they buy 1080p, they will find that SD DVDs do not look that great on a 1080p TV without up-converting.
However, if they also buy (or have) an up-converting DVD play, then they may very well pass on Blu ray as just an extravagance.
Joe-six-pack is a pretty cheap breed...odds are not good for mass acceptance of Blu ray...unfortunately.
(BTW-this all goes for HD DVD if it had stayed in the game as well) That is another problem for Blu Ray that I see. I just watched a few X-Files Episodes upconverted to 1080p and the looked pretty darn close to a not so good Blu Ray. So I have to distance myself from my earlier statements and have to say that the difference is really not so big if you have a good upconverting DVD Player. Also there are far too less advertisements for Full HD TV's. Since 720p TV's are cheaper to make they are cheaper to sell and most people will go for that. They hear "HD Ready" and already have the checkbook in their hands. | | | Check out my Youtube channel under https://www.youtube.com/user/alittleolder |
| Registered: June 27, 2007 | Posts: 2,049 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote: Quoting hal9g:
Quote: This is important because if they buy 1080p, they will find that SD DVDs do not look that great on a 1080p TV without up-converting.
I have to disagree on this point. My SD DVDs looked pretty darned good on my HD TV. Without upconverting SD DVD's look like crap on a a Full HD TV. I checked that out myself yesterday in various screen resolutions. If upconverted though, they look really good. | | | Check out my Youtube channel under https://www.youtube.com/user/alittleolder |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: ![Highest Rating](/images/Ratings/Small/4.png) | Posts: 13,201 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Stephan.klose: Quote: Without upconverting SD DVD's look like crap on a a Full HD TV. I checked that out myself yesterday in various screen resolutions. If upconverted though, they look really good. Not trying to be rude but, when were you in my chair, using my eyes to watch my DVDS on my TV? You may think they look like crap but, as I said, they looked pretty darned good to me. Do they look better upconverted? Sure, but they sure aren't crap when they aren't. JMHO | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand. The Centauri learned this lesson once. We will teach it to them again. Though it take a thousand years, we will be free. - Citizen G'Kar | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
| Registered: June 27, 2007 | Posts: 2,049 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote: Quoting Stephan.klose:
Quote: Without upconverting SD DVD's look like crap on a a Full HD TV. I checked that out myself yesterday in various screen resolutions. If upconverted though, they look really good.
Not trying to be rude but, when were you in my chair, using my eyes to watch my DVDS on my TV? You may think they look like crap but, as I said, they looked pretty darned good to me. Do they look better upconverted? Sure, but they sure aren't crap when they aren't. JMHO I watched a few x-files episodes on a 37" full hd tv. When not upscaled they did look indeed awful. When upscaled with my Samsung BD-P 1400 they looked pretty darn close to a Blu Ray presentation. So I have to distance myself a bit from earlier statements made, saying that blu ray is such a big leap. At least picturewise. Soundwise, True HD and DTS HD Master Sound is still truly amazing. | | | Check out my Youtube channel under https://www.youtube.com/user/alittleolder |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: ![High Rating](/images/Ratings/Small/1.png) | Posts: 6,635 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote: Quoting hal9g:
Quote: This is important because if they buy 1080p, they will find that SD DVDs do not look that great on a 1080p TV without up-converting.
I have to disagree on this point. My SD DVDs looked pretty darned good on my HD TV. I think this is probably highly dependent upon equipment. Id your "full HD TV" 720p, 1080i or 1080p? On my Sharp Aquos LCD TV, SD DVDs look quite bad with a significant amount of graininess. If I play the same DVD on my Sony Wega Plasma TV, they look OK; not great but OK. I am not a technical geek, so I don't know if TV's themselves do any "upscaling" of their own. If so, you would certainly see signifcantly diffferent results from one TV to another. | | | Hal |
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