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| Registered: March 14, 2007 |  Posts: 1,328 |
| | Posted: | | | | We've discussed this before, but I can't seem to find the discussion thread in this section. There is currently a profile up for vote where an original title is added for a Japanese movie.
Battle Royale: Limited Edition [5-027035-006338] - Original title is added "Batoru rowaiaru"
For those of you that may not be familiar with this topic, there are frequently western words (typically English) used in Asian titles. For the local audience, the words may be left in western alphabet or more often phonetically converted to the local language.
"Batoru rowaiaru" is nothing more than bastardized phonetic transcription of Battle Royale.
Examples: (titles are in original western alphabet followed by romanized version of phonetically written Korean or Japanese in parentesis, I can't enter native characters into this version the board)
Korean movies
Classic (Keulaesik)
Blue (Buru)
Natural City (Naetyeoral Siti)
Japanese movies
Ring (Ringu)
Macross (Makurosu)
Love Letter (Rabuleta)
Does anyone find this strange? If you ask any Korean or Japanese to write the titles of these movies using western alphabets, almost no one would write the romanized versions? My opinion on these romanized western words written in katakana or Korean is that we should just use the original English titles rather than romanize Asian phoenetic transcription of what is already English words. | | | | My Home Theater |
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| Registered: September 18, 2008 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 2,650 |
| | Posted: | | | | This is my contribution. TBH, I am unsure of the 'bastardisation' of the phonetic alphabet you mention and I will happily stand back and say I do not know enough about Eastern culture. I listed a bunch of sources including the usual movie sites but am happy to withdraw if thats is what the majority want / is correct (29 yes votes, 1 no as of now). However, I would personally keep it local. Just to note, it appears all UK releases have that listed as original title, and similar for your other examples.
I really am of no real opinion on this one though looking at what I find on the net, I do think it should be listed as original title. | | | | Last edited: by samuelrichardscott |
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| Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 1,328 |
| | Posted: | | | | I'm sure this is true to some degree for any language, but Japanese in particular have very limited phonetic range is their speech. They pronounce Battle as Batoru and Royale as Rowaiaru. So "original" title is how they write Battle Royale in Japanese Katakana that is then romanized back into English. | | | | My Home Theater |
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| Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 1,328 |
| | Posted: | | | | If a Japanese had to write Samuel Richard Scott in Katakana, they would probably write Samuehru Richadu Sukotu. But that doesn't make it your name in Japanese.  BTW, who is that in your avatar? | | | | My Home Theater | | | | Last edited: by xradman |
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| Registered: February 23, 2009 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 1,580 |
| | Posted: | | | | Japanese are unable to pronounce or phonetically write 'Battle Royal' in Japanese. Therefore, what they do is take the characters whose pronunciation is the closest and use those. In this case: Ba-to-ru Ro-ya-ru
In my opinion, there's no need to add an original title "Batoru Royaru" as that is not the intent of the film makers. They wanted their movie to be called Battle Royal but due to linguistic limitations had to 'bastardize' as xradman puts it, the title.
A different story is a movie like:
Monkey Magic
Saiyuuki
The original title is a Japanese native word: Saiyuuki (which is the title of a classic Chinese story). For the British release, it was translated loosely to Monkey Magic. In such cases it does make sense to use the original title form
But for loan-words from English to Japanese, I woudln't do it.
Just my 2 cents | | | Blu-ray collection
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| Registered: March 29, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Taro: Quote:
Japanese are unable to pronounce or phonetically write 'Battle Royal' in Japanese. Therefore, what they do is take the characters whose pronunciation is the closest and use those. In this case: Ba-to-ru Ro-ya-ru
In my opinion, there's no need to add an original title "Batoru Royaru" as that is not the intent of the film makers. They wanted their movie to be called Battle Royal but due to linguistic limitations had to 'bastardize' as xradman puts it, the title.
A different story is a movie like:
Monkey Magic
Saiyuuki
The original title is a Japanese native word: Saiyuuki (which is the title of a classic Chinese story). For the British release, it was translated loosely to Monkey Magic. In such cases it does make sense to use the original title form
But for loan-words from English to Japanese, I woudln't do it.
Just my 2 cents I totally agree with this approach, which is the closest to what happened in real world when movies were in theaters. | | | | Images from movies |
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| Registered: March 19, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 6,018 |
| | Posted: | | | | I agree with Taro. |
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| Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 1,328 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Taro: Quote:
Japanese are unable to pronounce or phonetically write 'Battle Royal' in Japanese. Therefore, what they do is take the characters whose pronunciation is the closest and use those. In this case: Ba-to-ru Ro-ya-ru
In my opinion, there's no need to add an original title "Batoru Royaru" as that is not the intent of the film makers. They wanted their movie to be called Battle Royal but due to linguistic limitations had to 'bastardize' as xradman puts it, the title.
A different story is a movie like:
Monkey Magic
Saiyuuki
The original title is a Japanese native word: Saiyuuki (which is the title of a classic Chinese story). For the British release, it was translated loosely to Monkey Magic. In such cases it does make sense to use the original title form
But for loan-words from English to Japanese, I woudln't do it.
Just my 2 cents Thanks Taro. I agree. BTW, Monkey Magic was one of the worst movies I've seen.  Goku character was sooooo annoying. | | | | My Home Theater |
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| Registered: February 23, 2009 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,580 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting xradman: Quote:
BTW, Monkey Magic was one of the worst movies I've seen. Goku character was sooooo annoying. I hate Katori Shingo (the actor playing Son Gokuu) and then some. That SMAP-reject can't act for 5 cents yet he gets casted in all kinds of parts because he's still popular among SMAP fans. You can't even go into a Japanese supermarket without running into his smug mug, making advertisement for wieners, bananas and what not. The older Saiyuuki movies were so much better and actually had actors that portrayed a great Son Gokuu. I hope they get released on Blu-ray some day. | | | Blu-ray collection
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| Registered: May 8, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 1,945 |
| | Posted: | | | | I agree too Taro | | | | www.tvmaze.com |
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| Registered: January 1, 2009 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,087 |
| | Posted: | | | | First of all I've to ask if I get it right:
What's the original title (on-screen credit) in the CoO? Something written in e.g. Japanese or is it Batoru rowaiaru in western letters?
If it is in Japanese I see the problem we can't copy it 1 to 1, so we have to romanize it. The next problem is, most users don't have the knowledge to do this on their own, so they have to find out with some help. Most times the internet where I also have seen sometimes different romanizations. -> variants in original title.
The big problem I could imagine is the distinguishing between basterized western title and original title. (For example I wouldn't see Love Letter is Rabuleta) This would lead also to variants in original title.
(And of course not to forget: We would get another exception from the standard rule.) |
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| Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 1,328 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting VirusPil: Quote:
First of all I've to ask if I get it right:
What's the original title (on-screen credit) in the CoO? Something written in e.g. Japanese or is it Batoru rowaiaru in western letters?
If it is in Japanese I see the problem we can't copy it 1 to 1, so we have to romanize it. The next problem is, most users don't have the knowledge to do this on their own, so they have to find out with some help. Most times the internet where I also have seen sometimes different romanizations. -> variants in original title.
The big problem I could imagine is the distinguishing between basterized western title and original title. (For example I wouldn't see Love Letter is Rabuleta) This would lead also to variants in original title.
(And of course not to forget: We would get another exception from the standard rule.) In Japanese, all borrowed words are written in katakana (as opposed to hiragana or kanji), so if you know something about written Japanese, it's would be easy. The on screen credit for Battle Royale from my recollection is Battle Royale in Japanese script (not in western letters). So why romanize something imperfectly when it was supposed to be English word in the first place? There is no Japanese word "Batoru". It's just how they pronounce "Battle" with their limited phonetic sounds. No Japanese would write Batoru Rowaiaru as a title for this movie. | | | | My Home Theater | | | | Last edited: by xradman |
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| Registered: January 1, 2009 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,087 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting xradman: Quote:
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No Japanese would write Batoru Rowaiaru as a title for this movie. But this is the romanized version of the on-screen tite? (The signs for ba, to, ru, ... are on screen?) Or is the the on-screen title "Battle Royale" with Japanese words? (Btw, can they also be romanized or can they be just translated?) | | | | Last edited: by VirusPil |
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| Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 1,328 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting VirusPil: Quote:
Quoting xradman:
Quote:
...
No Japanese would write Batoru Rowaiaru as a title for this movie.
But this is the romanized version of the on-screen tite? (The signs for ba, to, ru, ... are on screen?)
Or is the the on-screen title "Battle Royale" with Japanese words? (Btw, can they also be romanized or can they be just translated?) Let me give you this example. Your name is VirusPil. I pronounce it Baihrus Pil. Someone listening to it writes down Baihrus Pil. Is that now your name? It's the exact same thing. Both Baihrus Pil and VirusPil sounds the same and I could write it either way and have people pronounce it the same way, but only one is the same as original. Which would you prefer? Battle Royale and Batoru Rowaiaru can be written in Japanese exactly the same way, because to a Japanese, they both sound the same. So I would say that the "signs" for Battle is on the screen just as much as it is for ba, to, ru. BTW, where did this romanization come from? Like Taro mentioned, "correct" romanization would be Batoru Royaru. | | | | My Home Theater | | | | Last edited: by xradman |
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| Registered: January 1, 2009 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,087 |
| | Posted: | | | | Thanks you very much for explaining me, I think I got it. Quoting xradman: Quote:
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BTW, where did this romanization come from? Like Taro mentioned, "correct" romanization would be Batoru Royaru. I don't know those I seen have the wrong romanization in it. I think this would be an example for: Quote:
so they have to find out with some help. Most times the internet where I also have seen sometimes different romanizations. -> variants in original title. I could see an improvment with you idea if the amount of movies with titles like the example in you first posts is bigger than the amount of movies like Taro's example: Quote:
A different story is a movie like:
Monkey Magic
Saiyuuki
The original title is a Japanese native word: Saiyuuki (which is the title of a classic Chinese story). For the British release, it was translated loosely to Monkey Magic. In such cases it does make sense to use the original title form |
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| Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 4,655 |
| | Posted: | | | | How would one handle titles that are mixed Japanese and English, like "Kingu Kongu tai Gojira" (King Kong vs Godzilla) or "Furankenshutain tai chitei kaijû Baragon" (Frankenstein vs. Baragon)? | | | My freeware tools for DVD Profiler users.
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